I’ve written before about the experience of having my two worlds collide: being someone who has worked in the service of social welfare and now interested in fashion, representation and the productive use of technology. My definition of social welfare is an aspirational one that includes the well-being, level of happiness and quality of life of the entire society. My transition to studying and working in a new realm is becoming more and more of an easy one as many in fashion are taking on the issues I have worked on my whole career. Equality for women and girls, sustainability, social inclusion, and mental wellness to name a few. Helping organizations to become more culturally aware or “woke” as we say in the current moment and responsive is something I have been hired to do many times. However, during the time I did this work, the organizations and people they served were invisible. The current “blackface” blunder made by Gucci and the brand’s subsequent work to become more aware and inclusive is a perfect example of how an organization needs to change to realize real inclusion. The issue of social exclusion is now a very public one thanks in large part to social media.
March is Women’s History Month. Friday is International Women’s Day. The theme for Women’s Day is, #BalanceforBetter. This idea serves to move us from us/them approaches seen in the recent movement to one of gender balance and gender equality. In fact, balance is a great marker to strive for in most things in life. In the photo above, I am standing on the corner of Bethune Street, named for Johanna Bethune. She started the first all-girls school in NYC. Not only was it free but it was also integrated and this was in 1817. My nod to women’s history and the importance of free education for all.
People ask me how I got to be who I am today. One of my most significant experiences was attending all-girls schools, particularly the one I attended in college, Salve Regina. Here I was taught to think critically, to understand that the world, humanity and its presenting questions are not black and white and that education is a powerful tool in the achievement of gender equality. I arrived at college shedding my all-girls high school plaid uniform and trading it in for blue jeans (the new school uniform in the 70’s). I was immediately served lectures and interactions with important people shaping culture and most importantly speaking to women.
This photo from my college yearbook shows a few of the people that came to sit with us in dorm lounges and speak in lecture halls. Today I am wearing jeans and a long sleeve tee, just as I did then. I must say this way of dressing is grounding after a period of dressing up and going out for Fashion Week. I feel well…in balance. My nod to agnes b., the mother of reinvention is because I’ve been thinking of just that and daydreaming about what will come when I soon have more time. The jeans are from Re/Done and incorporate the ideals of heritage, history, sustainability and uniqueness as vintage Levi’s are taken apart and made into one of a kind pairs of jeans that contain the old story of the garment and any new one you wish to create as I am.
What do you do when you want to #BalanceforBetter and importantly what do you wear?
Comfortable stretch pants and a cotton fitting shirt. No undies!
Well you a little braver than me I must admit!
And, no socks ever, either *
* full disclosure – I live in the never-below-freezing ** Bay Area, and use wool fleece inserts in all my shoes and boots – During the month or two that it’s not sandal weather, that is –
** in defense/to my credit, I grew up in the frigid northern Midwest and am immune to too-cold-ness. Thus, sandals in 60 degree weather – piece o’ cake easy-peasy
Wow. Love your writings so far. I was searching for how to dress for a concert, as a 60 year young lady. Soon to be great. Grandmother. The conflict is real. I am going to enjoy reading the rest of your entries. And any hints…on dressing from anyone. I am dreading this concert tonight.
Good luck and I am sure that if you dressed for yourself you looked beautiful.
Comfy clothing : loose fitting shorts or jeans with long sleeved tops. Always cotton ! No bra, ever. For a bra I wear a cotton undershirt. It helps that I have small breasts 😉
I don’t know how you ended up in my inbox “accidentally” you say? We are twins separated at birth. I am very interested in the political issues of the day (majored in political science in college) that sounds so archaic now so many years later, but my passion for the world shall we say is endless. I also have a passion for style, panache and élan in all things so I welcome you to my blog favorites and feel you will probably become a favorite fast.
Thanks for continuing to as Michelle Obama says, “Become.”
Happy to find a kindred spirit. My major was history/politics and sociology, and of course always with style.
Jeans have been and are still my “go to” apparel for work, travel, comfort and yes, balance.
Hard to see in the photos, Alan Ginsberg? and Angela Davis? in the other one? and are you in the right picture?
An interesting time in college to be sure. I was at The California College of Arts and Crafts in Oakland in the late ’60s, early ’70s. Being a “private” college we always had some interesting “characters” visiting. The ’60s were an interesting time while much of America was waking from the conformative life, many were breaking through with the big questions.
It’s great to see you taking on many forms of style. Keep on going forging the path for us to grow “older” with style!
Yes indeed and that is Gloria Steinem on the couch as well. I am not in the photo but on the floor listening attentively! Given the context of our youth, there should be no surprises about us pushing the boundaries on age.
I admire you so much… I’m a French grandma, 72 years old, I do think you are beautiful outside as well as inside…
Thanks a lot Lady Accidental Icone…
Catherine Bernard Osipowicz
Thanks for your kind words.
I went to an all-women’s college as well, and will never regret that. It was an interesting time to be in an environment that truly encouraged women to think.
On the other hand, a small comment–jeans seem to me to be the least-inclusive of garments. In 62 years I’ve never had a pair that fit my pear-shaped (no matter what weight!) self. I hope someday to be included in the world of stylish jeans, because I love them, but don’t expect it.
I’m 70 and still love to “fashion up” when I go out, no matter where I am headed. I don’t want to wear what everyone else is wearing just because it fits, it’s clean and presentable. I want my clothes to speak of fun. That said, I am now heading out for some groceries in snow-covered Boston and even today I am thinking, “Fun.” I have an old pair of flared jeans that fit comfortably over my snow boots, an old white with gray splatters sweatshirt, my also-old Moncler coat and a comfy hat that doesn’t match anything. Fun. Where is the balance? Well, I could have and did not ditch any of this old stuff. But another sort of balance is acheived when I consciously smile at every person I pass on the street. I think it is building something and it cannot be bad. Interesting to me, it is no longer “consciously” done. I smile on automatic. And I am often flabbergasted by the responses—some look alarmed, yes, but most smile back or even say hi or more (like, great day, isn’t it?). Friendly and inclusive are also part of eco-responsibility, right? The most telling thing I am wearing today, then, is a smile along with my no-fuss oldies.
You have given me my daily dose of inspiration for today! Thank you.
For Balance for Better, I go into nature, read something inspirational, do Hatha Yoga, garden, cook a new recipe or do art. I live in the desert, so I often wear long sleeveless, flowing thin cotton dresses.
Ah I feel more relaxed just reading your post.
You caught my attention in a commercial on A tv. Loved and was inspired just seeing you strut your stuff…We connect…I am 66 years old and love my own styles and often get compliments because I don’t dress the norm!
Great post thank you.
I enjoyed reading about your education. I am 64 and have loved vintage clothing since I was old enough to have my own fashion sense. I love Levis. They were a statement in the 70s. Levis weren’t made wIth spandex then. We used to wear them in the bathtub in order to get a custom fit.
Oh my I forgot about the tub until you reminded me lol
We did the tub soak as well to get that custom fit. Thanks for the memories.
You are a great inspiration!
I’m from New York but I live in Tuscany. I like to repurpose clothes. I buy vintage and sell what I don’t wear or gift it.
I like to feel my roots so a comfortable pair of Levi’s a pair of tennis shoes and a crisp white shirt, white a Cashmere sweater and an old pair of my mother’s pearl earrings, these easy clothes on a relaxed day help keep me feeling connected to home and balanced. Ciao!Olivia
Ah such a classic elegant look you describe.
Thank you for bringing the #BalanceforBetter theme to the attention of your followers. It’s so important that consciousness be raised about gender inequalities in the workplace. Related to that is workplace ageism that results in an organizational loss of wisdom and experience when there is so much imbalance among workers. To answer your question, I blog (ExpressiveAge) when I want to #BalanceforBetter and at those times, I try to wear stylish clothing of comfortable fabrics that expresses my taste, aesthetic, and the pleasure of being a woman.
Yes in this time of extremes it feels like we must get back to a more balanced approach to everything.
I love you, as an icon and self made woman. I’ve been told that I remind my friends of
The accidental icon lady. I agree on dressing what you feel & how you feel with taste,
Taste is made of my dreams and colors, and it’s old & new
Blended to look iconic?⭐️
Everything new always comes from what was before with the addition of what’s new now.
Meditation, photography, music.
Favorites of mine as well.
Thanks! trying to make my two loves fit together!
Thank you Accidental Icon for such a thought-provoking blog. Like Olivia, I also buy vintage & preloved whenever possible and love a good de-clutter regularly. I was honoured to be part of a makeup campaign recently that represented diversity as it should be represented…..at the age of 68! So, times they are a changing, albeit slowly. We will get there! Suzi (Alternative Ageing)
Congratulations on the campaign! I think that the word diversity needs to be replaced with the concept of diverse positionalities. So often in fashion diversity is thought of in a very superficial way, usually younger women who are of different races, ethnicities, and shapes but are still idealized representations of beauty within that category. We all have multiple identities and fashion needs to figure out how to design and create products for women with all of their positionalities.
I have followed you for some time as part of my lifetime interest in style, having recently retired from my career I now live on a budget that sees me recycling by shopping at second hand outlets which in no way has compromised my sense of style, sneakers with well cut pants or jeans a smart shirt & statement earrings can take me anywhere
Indeed style is not about money, it is innate and like a creative talent. We should all be thinking more seriously about balance in buying and recycling so any tips you have to share about second-hand styling would be very welcome.
Me gustan los jeens convinados con camisas, remeras o casacas. Con zapatillas , botas o chatitas de acuerdo a la ocasion. Soy de Mar del Plata Agertina, de acuerdo al clima marino un abrigo con chalina.
Las calzas con remerones o camisolas.
Siempre maquillada naturalmente y con biyutery.
I’m basically a jeans and sweater kind of gal. I love dressing up, but the above is my work uniform, cozy and relaxed, yet sharp enough with the right shoes and accessories should something pop up unexpectedly. Thanks for this post! Looking forward to more.
So glad that the notion of “work” and consequently where we do it has changed and we can have uniforms that are comfortable yet allow us to be individuals.
I am now 59, and I love fashion! As a child, I changed clothing at least 3 or 4 times a day. My relatives were certain I’d become a fashion designer. I would wear a tutu dress my godparents brought from England, along with my dad’s fancy leather shoes – LOL! Mom was a ballroom dance teacher, and in that regard I had many costumes, with as many sequins as I could convince her I required. However, I fell in love with ponies and eventually became a life-long equestrian, which alternated with a career in fashion advertising production. My “costume changes” as I call them, are still frequent, as I added a new one 10 years ago… running. I had long been teased and made to feel less than adequate because of my small chest size. I recall watching the Olympics a long time ago and noticed my body type was almost identical to top track athletes. Eventually, I retired from full time equestrian sports and focused on running. More clothes! I love to coordinate from head-to-toe and have acquired a full-spectrum of colourful workout gear. I finally developed confidence in my stick-figure body as running has been one of the best things I’ve ever done for myself. I’ve won many championships and top age-group placings from track to 1/2 marathons, truly finding my niche. I still love the equestrian look and the added “bling” that’s become part of the style. I love high-tech clothes and devices, but insofar as #BalanceforBetter I emphasize the peace that comes with deep meditation, a knowing of who you truly are, balancing ego with soul, and using your personal style and confidence to inspire others on their own path, much like you do @accidentalicon 🙂 With love from the west coast of Canada on a beautiful little island in the Pacific.
I feel like we are soul mates. I often say that my relationship is performative in that I do relate to clothing as the costume I wear to perform my life which is always set in the scene of history and as you describe always evolving.
Appreciate your smarts & style so much! I often wonder if many of our universities have abandoned encouraging students to think critically & have robust & respectful exploration of “. . . humanity & its questions [that ] are not black & white . . .”.
I can tell you as someone who is feeling very disillusioned with academia right now. they have indeed abandoned teaching students how to think, feel uncomfortable or negotiate the responsibilities of life. I could go on…
My balance is achieved every day, come rain or shine, but plunging myself into nature aka sea swimming. Communing with nature, feeling part of the bigger plan, reminds me of what a tiny speck I am in the grand scheme of things. There can be no better way to find one’s sense of balance than to be tossed about in the waves and to emerge renewed, refreshed and revitalised. A swimsuit is all I wear, even in the winter and despite my passion for dressing up, my swimming costumed self feels like the authentic version of me.
Thanks for the email. Your thoughts are so welcome. As a woman in her 60s I’m only now getting over my college drop-out feelings of inadequacy. It’s taken me some time to discover that I’m good enough.
So happy you made the realization that you are good enough so you can enjoy the rest of life. It clearly sounds like you are.
I am unfamiliar with “Balance for Better”, though, I have lived that concept for many years. As a painter, I buy my work clothes from The Goodwill. I buy donated clothes for a handful of dollars from beautiful, dedicated people who rely on The Goodwill to put food on their tables. My work is then sold to beautiful people, with beautiful homes allowing me to give back to some of my favorite groups. I’ve created an ecosystem for myself.
I’m a huge fan, madam.
I’m 75 and still adore fashion. My mother was a London dressmaker to the late Elizabeth, the Queen Mother of our still fabulous well dressed Queen Elizabeth II. She taught me well when it came to sewing. Growing up in post-war England we had little for everyday wear as money was tight, but I always had stunning party frocks made by my mum to wear to wealthier school friends’ Birthday parties! I made most of my own clothing in my teens and loved following the trends. When I emigrated here in the early ’60’s I would pick Vogue Designer patterns, and lovely fabrics, send them back home for mum to make up and send back – until I could afford a good Singer sewing machine of my own! Then I sewed for years for myself and my children. Now I’m a great Zara fan for the latest affordable styles – adding some basics from H&M and J.Jill.
When traveling overseas I enjoy shopping for linen pieces, unusual shoes, an of course scarves. I have some clothes from years back, mostly cashmere sweaters, jackets, tailored trousers, and last week on a warm pre-spring day I pulled out a floaty printed midi skirt to pair with a chunky sweater, my olive safari vest, and short booties. BTW, the skirt is about 18 years old and worn by my dear late mother – and is back in style!!!!!
Lyn you inspire me when it comes to putting together unusual pieces and creating outfits not seen as ‘run of the mill’ but more like art – and of course you inspire in so many other ways too. Love your fascinating posts, your words, and wish you well in your upcoming retirement and new fashion career. Young women need people such as you. . . . . . . or their grandmothers!
What an incredible story, thanks for telling us.
37 and Italian writing from the Italian Alps. You really inspire me. The way you match your being-a-woman in a more traditional and possibly “light” way (like the fashion and make up lover) and the deep thinking, empathic but honest, with the acute analytical look you give at things and at the same time the down-to-earthiness which I really admire also in my mother. I really like that you used the words Inclusion, balance and equality. it seems to me that gender education (at least here in Italy) is leading to a constant fight where there seems not to be any right way to be a woman…you want to give priority to your family over work? you are an old-minded poor girl coming out of the fifties, you instead prefer working and do not want to have children? you are then on the men side, and throwing away years of women fighting for their rights…you accept a gift for woman’s day? other women will be orrified, you do not want to celebrate? you are so radical chic…enough with labels!! inclusion, balance, equality. Thank you.
You went to Salve? I lived in Newport from 1976 to 1987.
p.s. I love your G0Daddy TV commercials – saw them several times this weekend while in NYCity.
Just a comment on the “black face” issue and what I would call the need to seek balance and equality once again.
What I don’t understand is why these colorism issues reemerge after years of conversations and education by women of color such as Bethann Hardison and models like Iman , once rare faces, but no longer so, both of whom have done multiple seminars, aimed at designers and significant people in the fashion industry, addressing the need for inclusion of the outliers, specifically people of color at different levels of strategic planning and marketing campaigns.
I’d love if you would connect and have a conversation with Bethann Hardison on where we are politically and socially in the fashion industry on equal and respectful marketing.
I think with your background in social welfare this would be a conversation with integrity .
If you’re not aware of Bethann Hardison, listen to her on NPR.org ( season 2, episode 5) on 9/12/2018. The topic: Interview on model diversity and the ever changing face of fashion.
I do know her of course and this is an excellent suggestion I am going to take you up on.
Thank you so much for reading and honoring this request.
Nice article, Thanks for sharing.
I’m 57 and I feel so out of place in this period of my life. I feel like I’m not even visible anymore. I want to burn my entire wardrobe! I’m a California transplant living in North Idaho and their idea of fashion is flannel. I’m not brave anymore. I get told I’m “too old” for fashion ?
So happy to have found you! I am 72 (according to the world) but I still feel, and live as if I were in my 40’s, including having two sons in college, and also two grandchildren in college. My life is a merry go round of running and doing, and I love being that person who can multi-task. My greatest fear is of being deemed irrelevant and I am doing everything I can to keep that from happening. I work part time as a paralegal in a small law office and have found my own style – casual but professional with a little flair. But outside of the office? Jeans jeans jeans, leggings,yoga pants, tee shirts, cardigans and always boots. I feel like my stride lengthens and I have more of a pop to my walk in tight jeans and boots! I have friends who are younger than I and just wear the dowdiest things because they are “in their 60’s and a grandmother”. I think my grandchildren would not know who I was if I started acting like that!!
Running tights, running bra and some kind of shirt. I am a 67-year-old surgeon/distance runner and professor who loves her gray hair and has a no-bullshit approach to life. I always aim high and enjoy every second of what I do.
That’s how it’s done!
Thank you Lyn! I finally found your website and it is awesome! As a young at heart, curvy (US Size 14+) African-American woman in her late 40’s! I have always had a hard time finding stylish clothes to fit me. Even when I was in my late teens/early 20s & part of the baggy clothes of the hip-hop generation, I found that to be stylish meant going to the men’s section of department stores for Levi jeans, especially in the NE Ohio/W. PA area. I would try to pull off the looks made popular by entertainers on shows such as: In Living Color and New York Undercover! My Mom was kind of stylish whenever the mood hit her but, not into really into fashion as much as she got older: me with a major growth spurt in from ages 4-12: explains it!!) Since my parents were separated at that time, my Mom had to sacrifice her style to pay for my education at the 4th – 12th grade levels at co-ed parochial schools, I thrived in those schools but, I’m totally for public school education now after great BA & MLIS experiences with great women in my life at different stages as well as age groups! One of my favorite dress-ups was my Mom’s original Candies’ heels w/ the wood heel and leather strap. Mom had to stop wearing them after breaking her ankle when was 7 and then gave them away they went out of style! Only for them to be reissued in the last 10 years! Everything old is new again! However, my Mom’s style changed a little as well as mine with the Essence annual issue of women over 40, when it was first published! We adore this issue because my Mom loves to see how she measures up with the ladies of Black/African-American in regards to not looking your age. My parents had me when they were in their 30s when they had me: 1st and only child! My friend Laurie who lived on my floor freshmen year. She was a rural, Welsh Appalachia and thought my Mom was in her mid to late 30s, not 51! Laurie saw my Mom & her slightly younger sister, for the 1st time one Saturday morning, they driven to our dorm to take me home on a Saturday for a late autumn weekend! Upon my return, Laurie told me her impression of my Mom! When I told Laurie my parents weren’t teens when they had me, she started laughing! Laurie wasn’t naïve about African-Americans, except my Mom looked younger other Black/African-American classmates’ parents at our college. Some kids’ parents were 10 years younger than my Mom! We have a lot a stylish women on both sides of my family, many live or lived in/near big cities (DC, Atlanta, LA, NYC & Philly) that have more options than what I had growing up! Some family members are slim (US Sizes under -6), svelte (US Sizes 6-12) and of course curvy size; like Margaret Cho’s former clothesline and Ashley Graham, I prefer these terms to some of the other negative body type terms. I’m an apple more so than an hourglass on http://www.bodymeasurements.org Which is why I was so happy to move out of the Midwest/Mid-Atlantic area to Pittsburgh then Columbus (OH) and now Chicago! I learned about fashion and how to look for stylish clothes in my size, especially when I think it an item is too small but, fits just right! Working in retail place like Foley’s now Macy’s will have that kind of effect on you! Always try it on ladies, you will be pleasantly surprised! My previous subscriptions to Glamour, Marie Claire, More, Bust, Mode, BBW, Latina, Grace (Woman) and It Figures! helped with the knowledge about fashion styles, trends or just classics as well as women bosses with similar dilemmas! I know online shopping is the thing but, it is really just a high-tech version of mail-order catalog companies from the 1880s, except instead of The Pony Express or a Country Store drop-off for packages: now it’s UPS or USPS or Amazon Drones? Our favorite mail-order stuff were Sears, Speigel & J.C. Penney! I don’t understand why kids need designer threads? Carter’s, Oshkosh & Granimals were good enough for me! They worked for me until I outgrew them and they were handed-down to a younger girl cousin. Too many brands & fast fashion, no wonder the reports are inconclusive, hot or cold, what are the kids born after 9/11 are slightly confused about the climate & the future? I also learned about flea markets, hand me down clothes and garage/yard sales from my maternal grandmother and paternal great-aunt, to save money! They had at least three kids in the during WWII so they had learn to save or ration. Until I moved to the Chicago region 11 years ago, I still had a Carter’s pale yellow receiving blanket from my birth in the 1970s! So, it was 35 years old at the time, kept my feet warm & in relatively good condition. I needed to be sewn around the edges but it didn’t fall apart like the other blanket this 2 piece set. I lost the former blanket mentioned in the move as well as a old Samsonite suitcase! I had a apple green Samsonite suitcase, my Mom’s parents bought for the 6 grandkids & 3 great-grandkids! My overhead suitcase wasn’t the same color or brand & fell apart eventually but my older cousin had a royal blue 2 piece from Samsonite as well. She was in high school when she got it and used it through her colleges years! After she got her BA in business, she bought new luggage set because her 2 piece set could hold all her items when travelling by plane. Also, learning to darn, stitch or iron patches for rips or unraveling of threading materials for buttons or fabrics. I now understand why it is so important to utilize a tailor or just a professional measurement (especially for a bra)! It is well worth getting the right fit! And, of course books, social media, blogs and websites on people who you admire or their work or style definitely come in handy! One of my favorites is the female stylist who helped the late Burt Reynolds! She is curvy, over 50 and an award winning costume designer! My other icons are the late Diahann Carroll, Dorothy Dandridge, Jenifer Lewis of Black-ish, Jennifer Tilly, Lady Sara Lou Harris Carter (1st African-American Lucky Strike Cigarettes model & distant kin), Diane Keaton, Bette Midler, Oprah & Raquel Welch (before breast implants), Alfre Woodard & Whoopi Goldberg! Women who are 5’8 and under are mentioned because I’m about 5’6 and a busty. Hence my fashion issues!
Lyn, sorry for the length! Just had to give a little shout out from an pre-1999 hip-hop music loving, crazy, curvy, kickboxing semi-retired librarian from the Chicago region! F.Y.I. my college friend Laurie is also in the Chicago region as well and is a curvy fashion forward thinker as well! Except she is 5’9 and could definitely be a model for the former Mode/Grace magazine or Amaze or Venus Divas, as to my 5’6! We do have the shape legs in my family regardless of height! LOL!
Goal: Be an inspiration to all women. Mothers need a strong mentor to make it in this day and age. They need to fulfill the joy in their hearts to sprinkle love on their children for growth. I find that when I clothe myself with the internal armour of God; you can achieve what ever your heart desires. I am most comfortable in work clothes. Be it the days I am in the construction field in my hard hat to meet the laborers or wearing the business suit to meet with clients. Helping others to achieve their purpose in their pursuit of happiness give me great joy. Spreading the word of God is a passion of mine. The labor of Love is hard work. But so worth he worth it! This might sound silly and Im going out on a limb but I have started a new mission in life. I have found my purpose. Its not black & white but about finding the rainbow. If you find it in your heart, I would love your mentorship on this journey. The website domain name I have is currently blank. I wish to start a platform to share all womens business ventures for free. The vision is they send their products to me for review. I provide feedback for improvements. Use my resources to aid in their aspirations. No fee required. If the product is no good or needs improvement – no review will be public. They will be provided the information to improve. Only once the product or service is perfected will it be posted on the site. Thank you fr your time and consideration. God bless, stay safe and have a blessed day. Mrs Michelle Sapiro
I have never owned blue jeans never liked them.. born in 1941 i am likened to the annie hall era. khakis were a better look. diane keaton was the it girl f or me. always appreciated beautiful clothes. jackie O, Audrey Hepburn were icons of the day. Ruth Ginsberg is the intellectual fashionista of my world today.,
Lyn Slater included.
You are an inspiration. I am so glad that I “accidentally” stumbled upon it. I longed to be a model in my youth but being a single parent, college and “responsible employment” took precedent. I am soon to be 50 and live in a very small northern BC, Canada town where fashion is not a priority for many. While that is great for those who want it, I refuse to embrace that attitude. I love heels and fashion, new and vintage. I collect bags, shoes, hats and my bras ALWAYS match my undies! I feel most balanced in a great outfit. I have recently opted to love my natural hair after years of dying it and am excited for the changes. I believe that we are never to old to grow or discover that true inner self dying to come out.